Broadway Trustees and Red Car Board Get Into Gear

Unless I missed something I was just in Paris (France) and didn't deal with a "street car" system. Maybe they confused the Underground Metro for a street car. But if they do go all that way they should check out the other great Metro systems of Europe, London, Berlin and Paris or a very good "light rail" in downtown Istanbul.

Maybe they should pump back money into our (U.S.) economy and stay domestically. If so, add Denver to the list.

Not to be greedy but since the Mayors posse is on a road trip maybe they can swing by Chicago and Boston. Both cities have great urban parks.

I agree, no street cars in Paris that I've ever seen. But Amsterdam, Holland has an excellent system that runs through it's equivalent of the historic core---worth checking out maybe after Portland.

Paris had buses with open rear platforms but those were slated for retirement in the mid-1990s.

It would seem more efficient, and economical, to create a fare-free zone (as has been suggested in this blog before) than pin hopes for economic redevelopment on a street car system that does not yet exist.

After that the key would be advertising the fare free zone with tourists and locals alike.

Thank you Eric -- those look similar to our Blue LIne (not what most would think of with respect to Street Cars -- open air access to hop on and hop off at will).

The Amsterdam Trolley system is the perfect example of what streetcars can do. They have even narrowed their streets to make them more pedestrian friendly and bicycle friendly. Storefronts are always crowded with shoppers late into the night. And plus they have legalized brothels too !!!

Eric: Thank you, I sit corrected.

Who knew Paris had a Tram system? "Other than Mike Pfeiffer and a few million Parisians" Being on the outskirt of town I guess it didn't make it in my Lonely Planet Guide.

From the links the Tram looks very nice and it seems like it has a dedicated lane; similar to our Orange Line don't you think?

http://www.metro.net/projects_programs/orangeline/images/ol_interactive.htm

Portland has both Light Rail and Streetcars. The light rail lines look and function like our Blue and Gold lines. The streetcars, however, are quite different. They are smaller, slower, and make more frequent stops. It is by far the easier way to get around Downtown Portland. I am glad they are visiting that city and hope we can one day have a streetcar running down Broadway.

FYI Denver has light rail. No Streetcars. To circulate people in downtown, they have free buses running the length of the 16th Street mall with 90 second headways between buses. Very effective and certainly cheaper than building a streetcar line.

The funny thing is how alluring rail is. The buses on the Denver mall run much more frequently than the Portland Streetcar, and yet I prefer the streetcar.

Haha, when I first read it I thought it read Perris, CA. Home of the Orange Emipre Railway Museum.

http://www.oerm.org

...Since they have such a huge collection of the ol' Pacific Electric and Los Angeles Railway streetcars.

And I know what I'm about to say is a small detail and the main focus is getting streetcars running in downtwon again. But I really do hope that history plays a role in the design of the streetcars themselves. The PE had one of the best paint schemes I've seen on any piece of traction equipment and the designs of the cars themselves look much better then those sleek lightrail looking things...

Just my 2 cents..

The modern Paris streetcar opened in December 2006 and is the first Paris streetcar since 1937. It's the T3 Tram that cuts across the south of Paris over 5 miles from Porte D'Ivry to Pont du Garigliano all above ground.

In terms of street presence, even a 125' three car tram would dominate (and clog) Downtown's streets.

Maybe it is just our area's aversion to walking, but is Downtown really that big of a place, geographically-speaking, to necessitate yet another attempt at transit system? People do not make use of the existing services (DASH, et al) enough as it is. Why does anyone believe version Z will work when X and Y have not?

Certainly, there's a belief that a trolly or street car will help make Downtown a destination. This presents itself as another 'if you build it they will come' philosophy that has failed so many other revitalization project that get ahead of themselves in dreams of what can be, rather than work on what already is. These projects are great for the developers who get rich off the contracts from public funds but it is the, yes a cliche, 'organic' development that survives long-term.

People in this city have an amazing way of getting to where they want to go when they want to go there. Will a street car system alone make people want to come Downtown?

Just one anonymous poster's opinion, but scrap the street car plan and put the money into more on-the-street cops, BID security and a media campaign to change the attitudes area suburbanites have of Downtown -- because until the perception of Downtown is changed in the minds of generations of Angelenos who have avoided it, it is unlikely any plan for a sustainable 'theater district' will go far.

The problem with our current Dash bus system. Is that they are almost never on time, especially during rush hour when it counts the most. It is too long a wait for a DASH bus to come by, and when they do arrive: 2 buses are bunched together. I would rather hop onto a well designed Trolley loop which would come by every 7-10 minutes. And the system should run with clockwork reliability.

I street car would be fun but I dont think it would work well with the congestion of motor traffic.

Broadway needs to be made pedestrian friendly, inviting for the "whats in Downtown" crowd. Metro bus and rail stops need to be made to attract riders. Spruce up that DOT service to non 8-5 crowd.

All Broadway needs is a little more tender love and care! Bring out the paint and high pressure washers.

The only way to make a trolly or street car loop run like clockwork Downtown would be to give it priority over all other traffic. That's not going to happen because it would create gridlock that would spread onto four freeways (5/10/110/101) and turn Downtown into a rush hour nightmare even more people avoid -- counterproductive to a goal of revitalization. But hey, it would be great for those of us living Downtown!

Could there be a geographic information system giving DASH users better expectations of where the buses are and when the next one will arrive at a given stop? Absolutely. That's a solution that is whole lot cheaper than a street car system.

It will be interesting to see what can be gleamed from the DASH ArtWalk free shuttle.

Metro Local, DASH Downtown always seems crowded and popular to me. The main problem with DASH in Downtown is that service ends at 6pm.

I don't understand how a rail-based system can work with clock-like regularity if it is integrated with traffic lanes. If there is traffic, it seems to me that the trains would go with the flow, just like the Red Buses do at present along the Wilshire Corridor. The traffic signals could be programmed to speed the trains onward at intersections, but if autos are allowed in the same zone as the trains, there's just no getting around the congestion issue and so we have a sentimental make-works project and in addition, where do you keep the trains at night so there is no vandalism and tagging? I say replace the DASH vehicles with something OUT OF THIS WORLD. Make them so unique, dazzling and future oriented that suburbanites, visitors and conventioneers would HAVE to go for a ride. The image of Downtown of late is in decided contrast to Redcar mania - the latter so extremely retro and anti-cutting edge. The final reason that the redcar system was done away with was the fact that so much conflict had accumulated with the rise of the automobile and patronage had declined as well. There were too many accidents. There was NO BIG CONSPIRACY on the part of General Motors. If the redevelopment agency wants to spend money, make them get Angel's Flight back up and operating dammit!

Beware: once group-think sets in at the CRA, watch out.

Use that odd shaped triangle of land now a parking lot between Broadway and Main south of Olympic. Put in a turntable and surrounded that with a landscaped plaza and an ornamental fence for nighttime security. A restored Redcar could be kept there overnight. Put in a single track from there on up Broadway and have another turntable on the undeveloped final part of the County Mall between Broadway and Spring. Bureaucrats would likely want to have underground parking there, so the turntable/plaza/landscape solution would have to go ontop of a subterranean garage. There you have it; call it the Grove Solution. The single track can be part of a new streetscape along Broadway, one with expanded sidewalks and deciduous street trees planted out beyond the basments beneath the existing sidewalks. No left turns for automobiles and one big lane in each direction. To hell with DOT; why does Broadway have to be two lanes in each direction through Downtown? A revival of this one particular street is far more important than traffic considerations.

It's clear we are not all on the same page. What Councilman Huizar and the Broadway committee is trying to do and what most downtown residents want are not entirely the same thing. The Broadway committee wants to liven up the Historic/Theater District as a travel destination location and believe that an old style trolley car would help make it happen. Residents on the other hand want traffic congestion relief and an efficient mass transit solution.

Since there is never a simple panacea for such large social issues maybe in the short term we can adopt a multifaceted approach.

1. Allow for a "hail-a-cab" program within downtown;
2. Create a downtown fare (in Shanghai all cab rides within the city center district is one set price ie. $4.00 day/$2.50 night);
3. Create a dedicated bus lanes so that he DASH and other mass transit lines can effectively move within and through downtown;
4. Establish a new circular DASH route around downtown;
5. Increase the hours of service on the DASH.

A street car system would be great but without a better idea of how downtown is growing a fixed system at this point may cause more problems than it fixes. In the long run I think Los Angeles will need to invest in a world class mass transit rail system.

a street car would do a lot towards making downtown a tourist destination, as well as being extremely convenient for local residents. That has been proven by the success of the portland streetcar. A streetcar can even do a lot to reviving neighborhoods. Think if a streetcar went through the fashion district and arts district, they would all of a sudden feel a lot more connected to the main areas of downtown. I think a streetcar that eventually has multiple lines that connect downtown with citywest, chinatown, Union station, and the fashion and arts district, will be a huge catalyst towards turning the whole area into a thriving urban center.

Again, look to what can be learned from the ArtWalk DASH. Special transit service for a well established event that regularly draws people from all over the SoCal region.

You can already hail a cab in Los Angeles -- cab drivers generally ignore you because they can be ticketed for picking up in no-parking zones, crosswalks, etc.

A flat zone fee for cabs Downtown is an excellent idea. But there would need to be a rush hour surcharge so drivers would not avoid being Downtown when most needed.

The Broadway development plan is clear but Urban Bruin, earlier concepts for the Downtown Street Car project (posted here, no?) included a larger route. Or maybe my memory is faulting with all those flu meds.

Much easier to run the Holly Trolly for awhile to see what happens once broadway owners (some are already much better than others) invest their own capital in the vision they want public dollars to fund.

The problem with Broadway development from the theater owner perspective is parking. The idea is that a street car makes it easier to park north or south of the district and travel down to the theaters.

Hmm, I wonder what that does for the price of real estate on Broadway? Could be one of those landowners is pushing this concept to cash in after decades of holding?

No fault for ambition, such is the American way, but this is putting the cart before the horse when it comes to large scale public funding. Bring the people, then the Holly Trolly -- then something permanent with public funds if sustainability is proven, not dreamt.

Another solution, valet parking stops.

Gut instinct, a property owner(s) is/are pushing this project so it will increase their properties'' value for sale without having to make costly improvements to bring venues operational.

Rail would not run with clockwork regularity. It would follow traffic signals just like buses do right now. Here is why streetcars are better:

1) Support additional investment due to permanence of rails in the street.

2) People just like trolleys better. Some tourists would come Downtown merely to ride the trolley, especially if they take the Red Line to get here.

3) Are 100% electric, zero pollution at the source.

4) Trolleys are an integrated transit SYSTEM, connected to the ground.

5) Less problems with loading passengers than buses, including handicapped riders.

6) A transit system is a community ammenity, like a museum or a library. A bus is just a road vehicle with seats. Only "first class" (larger) cities can afford these. Any podunk burg can run buses.

Very great that the Bigwigs will be going to Portland to see their system first hand and learn how much investment it has encouraged in the formerly derelict downtown areas.

Remember, this is not an entire streetcar system (like we used to have prior to 1963), this is merely a downtown circulator loop, taking the function of one of the DASH lines. It will generate much more interest and money than the investment will cost.

Metro Local: Yes, on another post “similar topic”, I said I’d like to see a downtown loop (clock and counter clockwise) route. That would be more for traffic congestion relief and an overall solution to the lack of public transit in downtown for all hours. I’m not sure if that idea is what the Broadway group would be looking to do.

In looking at all the post, I’ve come to realize that we’re not all talking about the same idea with regards to a bus/trolley/street car, etc. in downtown.

All great ideas and I am encouraged…I hope some of this dialogue makes it to the powers that will actually implement the program.

So why aren't some of the property owners on Broadway doing more to spruce up their venues' potential without waiting on a commitment from public funds?

Likely because the cost of contributing to a street car project, and politicians' political campaigns, is less than the costs of bringing their venues up to contemporary standards on their own.

Danger -- The Freemont Street experience dead ahead. The point, not every urban revitalization plan works. There is more to be learned from the ones that have not, then the ones that have.

Perhaps because business owners need some assurances that the city will provide.

Shouldn't we at least make an effort at revitalization? This isn't just about business side economics, it is also about preserving historical buildings, for the future.

We have already lost many landmarks due to neglect. Broadway has been decaying since the Red Car stopped running. Bringing back a trolley line will be a start. Trolleys can also help solve our parking dillemma. And give people a reason to walk when they would otherwise drive past.

The funny thing is, Downtown is revitalizing. Efforts are being made.

What is happening is that the Historic Core residential areas (Spring/Main) are quickly matching pace with the Financial District and South Park in terms of their acceptability to the residential shopper. It will likely be a matter of months when the grittiest part of a walk from Main to Figueroa will be Broadway if it is not already.

While all this has been going on, some Broadway property owners have been doing more than others to make an effort.

Why has the Orpheum been so successful in adapting to change and the Los Angeles Theater not? Parking might be one answer but it is far from the only one -- and a multi-million dollar trolly built with public funds during a budget crunch is NOT the only solution to improving parking lot to venue access. And realistically, not a single venue on Broadway is more than one block from an existing parking structure (if not two or more). So the 'parking' issue is really a red herring.

If this is a matter that Broadway property owners are willing to pay for the entire trolly -- great, go ahead. But if they want public funds, expect resistance to this project and motivations to be examined.

There's little doubt property owners on Broadway could sell their holdings now for a profit, with or without a commitment to a trolly project.

This project just smells like a very large, expensive public expenditure that in the end will benefit those property owners who are NOT making an effort on their own but instead expect public funds to do the heavy lifting when everyone else around them is getting along with the new Downtown.

In short, it would be better to see public dollars go to those places that are already making an effort instead of those waiting for their hands to be held into change.

The people who make the claims that streetcars won't work in L.A. or here in the O.C. are not looking at the long term.Things could be quite different in how people live and or work 20-40 years from now. The current "car culture" status quo won't last forever what with concerns about gas prices, traffic jams, insurance and repair costs, and environmental issues such global warming. Also I've noticed especially here in O.C. that some of these same people complain about the presence of overhead trolley wires that these systems would be using. Get real people they're part of the street railway scene! Besides there are ways of designing them so that they're less obvious. Also most of our suburban architechture is so bland as to make finding subsitutes for trolley wires almost entirely not worth it.