Stakeholders Talk All Things Streetcar at Broadway Workshop

I can only say how I used the streetcar in Portland. Walk along 10th Avenue. Look in some stores. While reading a menu in a window, the streetcar approaches. Quick, do I want to eat here or do I want to eat a Jake’s? With only a second to decide, I jump on and ride up to Jake’s.

In L.A., however, the streetcar will relate to the pedestrian in a whole different manner. There will be no quick decision to jump on the streetcar. Why? Because it will be separated from the pedestrian by two lanes of traffic on either side of it.

Because the streetcar will run down the middle of the Broadway, you have to make a conscious decision much earlier on to ride it. You remove yourself from the activity of the sidewalk - the stores and the restaurants - to sit yourself in the middle of the traffic and wait for a streetcar to come. Spontaneity is replaced with a more commuter-like attitude: what time is the next streetcar to get me to my destination?

I wish people like Jim (was that his name?) from Urban Partners were taken more seriously. He was involved with the Portland Streetcar and the phenomenal growth of the Pearl District. He breifly spoke in support of the “B” plans and good urban design. Instead, his years of expertise were given no more weight than that of a neighborhood stakeholder who happens to think a median down Broadway would be nice.

I’m surprised to the see the “center of Broadway” sketches. The purpose of the streetcar seems to be getting people on and off the sidewalk. I don’t see how separating pedestrians from easy access to the streetcar would serve any purpose.

Eric, you and your group had a great suggestion at the planning workshop today - that buses be rerouted off of Broadway and utilize the streetcars for transportation up and down the street. I don’t understand why there is so much effort to accomodate buses in the preliminary streetcar plans. They can easily travel on Spring and Hill. Plus, as you said who wants to continue having to deal with bus noise and air pollution while we are trying to enjoy ourselves at the new cafes and stores they are talking about bringing. Especially, after spending so much time and money building a new streetcar system.

What happened to the idea to turn Broadway into a pedestrian mall/ street? With the full right of way, you could have double tracks with direct sidewalk connections and additional streetscape features. I think a plan with full pedestrianization, streetscaping, and two-way streetcars is the only option to truly revitalize Broadway and make it the main street of downtown. Yes, the streetscape work could come later, but the double-tracking would have to be done now.

I agree the streetcar should run at the sidewalk, one way or the other. If they can’t afford to move the utilities to put the streetcar at the sidewalk, then the idea to move out the sidewalk to where the streetcar needs to run utility-free is a compromise.

That was the A3 design. It would impact cars by reducing traffic lanes, but it was still a three or four laned street, with really big extended sidewalks and I’m all for that.

My group went with A1 but then A3 made more sense to me later in the paseo discussion because then you have a paseo and those wide extended sidewalks together it makes a big publis space - you could even do parks and courtyards for greening. There are a lot more options for A3 that they should explore. I think the bike path people liked but the logistics were hard to understand. A3 makes people a priority over cars but still has car and buses if necessary.

My group went A1 but now I would advocate for A3. Can they do an A1 vs. A3 workshop?

one more thing I don’t agree with double-tracking or whatever it is called now or later. Running a streetcaar up and down only one street only helps people who need that one street. Running it up one street and down another in sort of a loop helps make streets in both directions be more safe and active, and downtown needs that.

I hope they stay with the different streets / cuplets idea. Also, Broadway is not ready to be a pedestrian-only mall. Maybe in a few years they could talk about that if more commercial gets going and late night stuff, but right now it would be dead from 5pm to 8am every night with no eyes on the street from vehicle and bus traffic. A nine or 10 block dead zone in the middle of the city every night is not safe. I’m all for talking about it later but I have to walk down Broadway at night and it’s bad enough now, take the cars away and it would be scary.

Hmmmmm, A3 extending sidewalks on one side might be a good option again because it does really reduce the traffic on Broadway. Maybe it’s a halfway point to making it all a pedestrian mall (basically if they did A3 on both sides, and let the streetcar run in the middle, it would be a pedestrian mall) But one side for now keeps traffic on the street right now as it is needed.

Hi Everyone:

I attended the Charrette and participated with Eric Richardson among others at one of the Connecting Transit tables.

I offered my expertise as a very long-time transit user (MTA and predecssors) and as one who grew up with the streetcars here in Southern California (both Los Angeles Transit Lines and Pacific Electric).

Whether this project will ever see the light of day, I am not sure.

There were many planners at our table (and at the morning session also) that are more technical minded than yours truly and they offered many technical suggestions.

There was a lot of discussion about the Portland Streetcars and unfortunately, I haven’t ridden them yet.

I have ridden the “F” historic stretcar line in San Francisco but not for some years, and now according to internet reports, this line has become overcrowded, something I pointed out at our table.

I look forward to other comments.

The Charrette was mostly enjoyable and I am glad I was able to participate.

—“Ken” Ruben— Culver City, CA

Jees how long is it going to take for us to get the streetcar back. Glendale has one already and I didn’t even know they were building one. How is it that Glendale get’s one before L.A. even though it’s in the Americana it’s better than not having one at all. Also regarding the designs,the street car needs to be next to the side walk so people can step right into the car from the sidewalk and not have to cross the street to get into it.

No offense, Porteno, but Glendale does NOT have a streetcar. Glendale has a tourist-trolley that runs through the Caruso development, Americana, similar to the tourist-trolley that runs through the Grove.

Those are shopping mall gimmicks, not streetcar systems.

The streetcar system envisioned for downtown is an actual transportation system, connecting to other transit systems to get people throughout downtown – not just deliver people from the Gap to the Barnes & Noble all in the same fakey outdoor mall complex.

So when exactly is the Red car going to be in LA… in 20 years?

No, I think they’re saying 6 to 8 years. It’s moved forward a lot in six months and now it looks like the private sector is on board to help pay for it - Eric reports on a non-profit being setup for LA by property owners like they did in Portland to pay a good chunk of the cost.

After looking at the proposals, The only ones that could work are;

A combination A2/B2 where the streetcar will operate on the right lane. Buses will operate on the far left lane. The streetcar at the major bus intereface will have a dual boarding zone on both platforms for both buses and peds.

For the buses only lane on both ideas, those buses will only board at specific stops when the streetcar is operating the ones at my mind at the moment are 1st/2nd Street (Future interface with Regional Connector), 5th/6th Street, 8th/9th Street and Pico Blvd.

Trying to remove buses from Broadway and just shoving them on Hill or Spring Street will bring back the Contraflow lane to Spring Street since the available land that Buses could layover are dwindling due to the development.

I’m surprised more people haven’t stated they’d like to see the streetcar travel both directions along Broadway. I understand the economic appeal of having two streets with surface cars, but it seems that the vitality of Broadway is further enhanced by having a north/south streetcar line. The vitality will radiate out from any successful area of reinvestment in time.

Has there been any discussion about using an adjacent street for some sort of a more “express” streetcar route later on? I realize that forcing riders to go down Broadway has advantages, but perhaps in the coming years an alternative slightly faster route will be appealing?

Lastly, I’m amazed at how many people express confidence in Broadway’s faring well as a pedestrian/streetcar only environment. While Portland’s transit malls have been successful (with constant, dedicated efforts on the part of developers and the city to keep it fresh and useful), there are so many other examples of failed pedestrian only environments. While automobiles should not be catered to in Downtown LA, people seem to prefer an environment with all modes of vitality present: pedestrians, vehicles, etc. along with residential and commercial/retail uses.

State Street in Chicago is a good example of a street that suffered as a transit/pedestrian only environment from the late 70’s to the late 90’s. The renovation of this street brought on a reintroduction of automobiles and transit while holding on to wider-than-normal sidewalks. While State Street continually has to deal with the draw of North Michigan Avenue, it is far busier and far better-off with a heavily landscaped environment and all modes of transit available.

Regardless, it’s good to see so much discussion and momentum building about Downtown LA.

I’ll be 23 years old in 6 years and 25 in 8 years

The comment regarding B2 was dead on - it WILL engage the sidewalk and streetscape environment more than a median option.  People will be able to get on and off the streetcar without having to be stranded on a median - this is especially important for wheelchairs, bikes and people with stollers or rolling carts.   Furthermore B2 is the only option that allows for two lanes of traffic in each direction AND on-street parking on both sides of the street.  On-street parking is vital for both successful retail and creating a better pedistrian experience by both slowing traffic and creating a “refuge” or barrier for the pedistrian.  It also provides a barrier to allow for a better sidewalk dining experience (think of the Daily Grill vs Petes).  I dont believe the added utility cost will be all that great when measured over the entire alignment (ie not just Broadway).  We are building a system that will last for decades and will result in development investment many times its upfront costs - we must take a long term and big picture view.  I would encourage anyone seriously interested in this project to visit Portland and see how it has shaped the pedistrian and retail experience (Portland used the B2 model).  Jim Atkins, formerly of The South Group.

If this were a true Complete Streets project it would also accommodate the needs of bicyclists, where is the space allocation for this constituency? Oh that’s right, this is Los Angeles potentially one of the most bikeable cities in the U.S. yet still caught in the headlights of the automobile. In any event, I like A1 and A2 both remind me of the streetcars in Amsterdam, which run down the middle no problem. Both designs would further benefit from taking away a car lane in each direction and allocating this space to bicycles to achieve transportation equity.

In the diagram from A1 the streetcar is given 28% of street space while motorists are in command 70% of the roadway (figures do not include pedestrian off-roadway allocations). Reducing the motorists allocation to under 45% would provide the necessary space for a dedicated bike facility.

We discussed bicycle use in detail.

It was felt that since almost all buildings on Broadway load from the front, the only way to dedicate bike lanes and add a street car was to loose all loading, valet and handicap access. The other alternative is to narrow it down to one lane of traffic each way that backs up when the streetcar or buses stop (not a solution that works either). You just can not add streetcar lanes, planted median parkways, extended sidewalks, bike lanes, and not loose almost all access to cars and buses and loading facilities. An eventual restriction of through car traffic with enhanced pedestrian access, limited time service vehicle access and handicapped and valet service could be constructed in phases.

Stephen Box with the bicycle coalition mentioned that most novice bicyclists would never feel comfortable on Broadway, even with a dedicated bike lane, with Broadway still having the existing levels of buses and service vehicles. The streetcar and planted median will add some traffic calming. He felt that the more advanced bicyclist would feel comfortable with a more traffic calmed Broadway riding with the traffic.

We discussed that a better focus would be a parallel bicycle path on Spring Street- with its tree lined boulevard and less commercial traffic. Another north/ south path further west would be needed along with east/ west grids.

We do need a downtown bike plan, but not every street is the best candidate for bicycle only lanes. We are also working towards a phased plan that works now, and can provide a foundation toward future changes as warranted.

The other part of this discussion that has not been discussed in detail is creating mid-block paseos.

Envision the Broadway /Spring Arcade redone with great shops, artists and paseo dining options. The center median boarding stations could be accessed from this new locations. Imagine that the mid-block paseos can now become “new corners” with enhanced development and a sense of place.

The advantage of knowing when the streetcars are arriving can easily be incorporated into other markers like large timers on the stations that are visible from across the street. If you know you have 12 minutes, it really does not matter whether the car is boarded on the sidewalk or in the landscaped center median. Just add an extra 2 minutes with synchronized walks and you are set.

This process is also very much about how do we not destroy Broadway while this is built. Anyone who remembers the construction of the red line, or the re-do of Santa Monica Blvd in West Hollywood, can imagine Broadway being an excavation zone for years, and how everyone (including good businesses of many long term stakeholders) would be destroyed.

Portland’s experience of construction (with no utility relocation)was a block each 10 days to 2 weeks. Just look at the Gold Line construction on First Street east of Little Tokyo and now imagine all electricity, cables, phone service lines, that can be over 100 years old being ripped out and replaced. This bill would need to be footed by the same property owners that would have businesses abandoning in droves and rents crashing.

Also remember, this exercise is for Broadway only. The possible routing on Hill or Olive, Pico, 11th or 12, around LA Live/ Staples/ Convention Center and around Disney Concert Hall/ Music Center, and The Grand is yet to be determined and the utilities are in different locations.

Downtown News article on Streetcar progress.

http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2008/08/25/news/08-25-08-news04.txt

B2 but without the street car.